Toilets

[Tundra]

Weird question, but how much technology and infrastructure is needed for flushing toilets? It doesn't have to be modern kind of flushing toilets... they could have to fill the cistern with a bucket themselves each time or something.
So, lets talk about fantasy kinds of toilets.

[Emperor]

actually the toilet is rather simple pyshically, the idea was hard to come by

the s bend created a pressure value to stop it coming back, so it could be built with ston, and water pressure can be generate using a water tower, so not to complex

the roman had a different system of flowing water and sponges.

[Ranma]

need an answer ask a plumber, you'd be suprised at all the stuff that goes into toilets, i'll edit this post later today ad explain it better then but theres is a LOT of stuff involved in le pooper

[Tundra]

I don't mean so much the modern one...

[Jenevieve]

I seem to recall that the Minoans had some form of toilet system, and they were pre-ancient Greece, so I think you're good to go. Unfortunately, I know absolutely none of the details.

[vindemiatrix]

What sort of toilets were you thinking of in particular? I mean, fantasy settings generally have the good old privy, which is usually your basic hole in the ground with a shed on top, but as I remember the Romans invented what was a very basic flushing system (I think it was very much akin to "chuck some water down there and hope for the best", but they DID have sewers, and I seem to remember they were made out of stone too and they had no dividers so you just squatted down next to everyone else, but I'm not exactly going by a book here) and it'd be interesting to see that kind of thing implemented in a fantasy setting. Or at least no more privies.

[AXJ]

I'm with Emp (god forgive me). Flush toilets are an impressively simple yet elegant system. Automatically refilling ones are a little more complex, yes- but like Emp said, this biggest engineering marvel behind those is the water tower, and the means to pump water into said tower. The valves and gizmos that allow the tank to refill and stop when it's full wouldn't be that tough for a clever man to puzzle out with a lot of trial and error. It's an entirely manual, non-electric system.

Howstuff works has a pretty good illustration & explaination:

http://home.howstuffworks.com/toilet1.htm

[snooze]

Why not just build a latrine over top of a flowing water source, such as a stream? (Downstream from wells and drinking water sources, of course.) That's how the folks did it on that tropical island thing.

[Tundra]

because there are villages and so on. This may be fantasy, but they do know about hygiene.

[merrihart]

Over the top tanks, ftw. You pulled a string, the water went down the tube, the tank up top flowed down. You fill the tank in an inventive way (child with a bucket always seemed to work).

Water closets were the envy of every middle income house hold.

I think the big steps in toilets was getting water into every household. After that step, toilets just appeared everywhere. As emperor said, the S bend was the real genius, so the smell would not come up the pipe. Water gets trapped in the S, blocking odor.

[Tundra]

that was sort of my question too. How much technology is needed before you can get water to houses?

[Sulis]

The Romans had running water in a lot of upper-middle-class homes. Mostly in the form of fountains, but hey. Who wouldn't want a fountain in the middle of their atrium? But the technology wasn't that big a deal to them, so I'd imagine any medieval-type city should be able to manage it.

[Tundra]

So, if i gave them running water, what would be some differences between our water things today, and their water things? It's not in the past, it's in the future.
Because sure, i could just have my characters on their quest say 'i miss proper toilets' when they go off with a trowel into the bushes lol. But, it'd be good to explore what the differences would be in real homes too, between now, and their time/place.

[LadyAbby]

The Romans had running water in a lot of upper-middle-class homes. Mostly in the form of fountains, but hey. Who wouldn't want a fountain in the middle of their atrium? But the technology wasn't that big a deal to them, so I'd imagine any medieval-type city should be able to manage it.

Hers isn't a medival type city though. Think later than that, like, 1700-1800s sort of time period.

[Tundra]

well, almost that. It's sort of weird, it's like, fantasy... and isn't modern, but has modern elements, and older elements...

[AXJ]

that was sort of my question too. How much technology is needed before you can get water to houses?

The biggest technological hurdle to having running water in every house is the concept of mass production, specifically that of pipes and fittings. The concepts and tech behind having pressurized water in a town is, again, pretty basic, but the big problem is that there's a whoooole lot of pipe that goes into a municipal water system, and it'd be out of reach for cottage-level industry. You'll need a proper large-scale refinery and foundry.

The other thing you need is a powerful enough pump to move the water from your water source (a large spring, lake, or river) to your holding tank, which will need to be situated at a higher point that anywhere the water needs to flow. As long as the elevation difference isn't extreme, this pump could be driven by a water wheel or windmill.

[Sulis]

The biggest technological hurdle to having running water in every house is the concept of mass production, specifically that of pipes and fittings. The concepts and tech behind having pressurized water in a town is, again, pretty basic, but the big problem is that there's a whoooole lot of pipe that goes into a municipal water system, and it'd be out of reach for cottage-level industry. You'll need a proper large-scale refinery and foundry.

Not necessarily. Lots or Roman pipes were terra cotta or lead, neither of which would require large scale refinery or foundry options. They're both easy enough to work that one could, in theory, divide the manufacture of the pipes up between several different craftsmen, as long as all of them were working off the same specs.

[AXJ]

The biggest technological hurdle to having running water in every house is the concept of mass production, specifically that of pipes and fittings. The concepts and tech behind having pressurized water in a town is, again, pretty basic, but the big problem is that there's a whoooole lot of pipe that goes into a municipal water system, and it'd be out of reach for cottage-level industry. You'll need a proper large-scale refinery and foundry.

Not necessarily. Lots or Roman pipes were terra cotta or lead, neither of which would require large scale refinery or foundry options. They're both easy enough to work that one could, in theory, divide the manufacture of the pipes up between several different craftsmen, as long as all of them were working off the same specs.

As I understand it the Romans also didn't have flush toilets or on-demand running water in every home, either- IIRC the system was more geared to providing communal drinking water sources and bath houses. And as such- much much less material needed.

[Tundra]

I don't necessarily want modern flush toilets. Just some sort of flush toilet.

[AXJ]

I don't necessarily want modern flush toilets. Just some sort of flush toilet.

In individual houses? Or just, like, a communal neighborhood one?

[Tundra]

homes.
These people do have bits of modern knowledge, since it's actually in the future...
I'm not saying ALL homes though, i mean, most LIKELY, the villages won't. But this is in a city.

I'm just looking for much better alternatives to the medieval type thing where you chuck it out onto the street.

[AXJ]

How big is the city - how many family dwellings, approx?

[Tundra]

erm... not quite sure.

Maybe I'd be better to have some sort of thing like my mum had when she was little- a pan under a toilet, and a man coming around every few days to take it away.
Or, like those modern long drop toilets. Though, *shudder* they REALLY freak me out. But they're 100x better than the original type, where it's just a seat over a hole. These modern ones have some way that they make it so that it doesn't smell.
And then the really fancy houses and public toilets can have flushing loos of some sort. Probably still not the same as ours, but more 'fill the cistern' type situation.
Basically, I want it to be as hygenic and smell free as possible. Since these people DO have an understanding of bacteria, germs and cleanliness, and they're quite medically advanced.

[merrihart]

Cisterns on the top of your buildings. They hold rain water, then it's a matter of devising how you drop the water into the building (ie, child with a bucket, or a once daily "dump" of water into the pipe network by pulling a plug).

As AXJ state, it's expensive to get piping to every house, so your characters can actually have different bathroom styles. One can have a fully functioning bathroom, while another might have more of a "commode", where you empty a pan afterwards in an agreed upon location.

Limestone covers the smell, btw. So that might be one of the chores they have to attend to.

[Tundra]

http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/toilets.html

I just found this. I'm not sure what I think about it, but it could be an option for 'proper' toilets for my characters to miss.
I still think it'd smell. And, i would not envy the person who would have to empty it and wash it i'm assuming.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

You could just take a crapulous in the ground when nobody is watching....

[Tundra]

... yes. but, like i said, i want it to have some sort of civilisation.

[AXJ]

http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/toilets.html

Woah, it's like human litter boxes! :shock:

[Tundra]

yeah. i think it's odd. And i think it would smell.

[AXJ]

Well, keep in mind, you've got a fantasy setting here, so you could work that to your advantage. Perhaps your civilization uses composting toilets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composting_toilets) and for them they have discovered (or bred) a yeast-like microorganism that thrives on ammonia and methane, which generates a huge part of the smell. Or perhaps there's a substance, mined locally, which does the same. So maybe you've got something like a composting toilet that 'flushes', whereby the 'flush' dumps a measured quantity of this substance on top of the waste, thereby killing the odor.

[Tundra]

hey i like that idea. that they could release a trapdoor that would sprinkle stuff onto it...

[Koyaanisqatsi]

... yes. but, like i said, i want it to have some sort of civilisation.

Whats that supposed to mean? Returning natural waste to the Earth in a simple fashion is very civilised!

[Tundra]

I mean, I don't want there to be health/cleanliness issues, or odour.