Searching for Mary Sue

[Arden]

uh... This is a REALLY embarrasing question :oops: heh... What is Mary Sue? What kind of character do you have to be to be a Mary Sue?*Don't shoot me* I have an idea but... I want to know for sure

[Tundra]

a character that is either 'too perfect' or, it's pretty much a perfect/idealised version of yourself.

[Einna]

A Mary Sue (or Harry Stu for the guys) is basically a perfect character. Somone who always says the coolest thing, always does everything perfect, always know all the things they should know, etc.
There's actually a Mary Sue test, here:

http://missy.reimer.com/library/marysue.html

Also, you can get Mary Sue/Harry Stu's evil twin, which is basically the perfectly evil villain who is evil just because they're evil.

Hope this helps!

[vindemiatrix]

^^ Not entirely right.

A Mary-Sue is basically an extension of the author's will, an avatar of the author in the story. Usually the main character, they tend to be very physically attractive, and very powerful, and about the author's age (or the age they'd like to be). Often they even have the same name, or a name based on the author's, or a name the author really likes. They're wish-fulfilment. The Mary-Sue is powerful, and everyone likes her, and she gets the guy, because the author wants her to. She has traits that the author thinks are cool, like wittiness or independence, and is often the first in with a comeback.

Another mark of a Mary-Sue is an incredibly tragic past (often involving physical/emotional/sexual abuse), which of course gets her lots of sympathy and gives a good scapegoat in case she does bad things; it's not HER fault, it's because she was treated badly as a child, Mary-Sue very rarely makes mistakes, and even when she does, she doesn't suffer any dire consequences.

But the main mark of a Sue is author identification. A Mary=Sue, if well-written, can be a good and likeable character anyway, but even normal characters can become Sues if the author identifies with them too much. If you find youself getting too attached to the character, making it so that everything in the story swivels on that character for no good reason and that this character is all everyone talks about, etc, etc, you've probably got a Mary Sue on your hands.

I am an expert on Mary-Sues. *grin* If you're worried, Arden, that one of your characters might be a Sue, why don't you post a profile?

[Arden]

wow... i was way off. THANK YOU!!! :D

[vindemiatrix]

I'm interested to know what you thought a Mary-Sue was now!

[AXJ]

Me too. :)

[Ariella]

...so basically a Mary-Sue would be a half-Veela except without the ridiculous accent.

[vindemiatrix]

Hell, Mary-Sue often ARE half-Veela. And WITH ridiculous accents.

Harry Potter Mary-Sues are the BESTEST.

[Jenevieve]

Oh, yeah. The foreign exchange student that comes to Hogwarts who is secretly Voldemort's daughter and/or Harry's twin and has an entire paragraph expended to describe her hair is certainly not a Mary Sue. Of course not! And I'm never sarcastic, not me, never.

[Daisy]

Vindie, you seem to know a lot about Mary-Sues, so I have a question for you. Or for anyone else who can answer.
I have this character, a teenage girl, and she has a bit of a "tragic past" involving major neglect and one punch in the face. I knew this was a bad start, and rather Mary-Sueish, but this was the only thing that would work for my intended plot. The difference is that she is not physically attractive, or powerful, and she doesn't use her past as an excuse, because she has her head on straight and knows that the abuse is not her fault in any way, but a result of drugs, alcholol, etc. Therefore, she doesn't have any emotional scars, although she is a somewhat reserved during the abuse thing, but she comes off it when it's over. I'm also worried about her being a wish-fufillment, but I'm watching that closely.
So, basically, does she seem like a Mary-Sue? Just wondering.

[Ariella]

Harry Potter Mary-Sues are the BESTEST.

this is why I do not dip into the HP fandom >_>

well. one of the reasons.

[vindemiatrix]

Vindie, you seem to know a lot about Mary-Sues, so I have a question for you. Or for anyone else who can answer.
I have this character, a teenage girl, and she has a bit of a "tragic past" involving major neglect and one punch in the face. I knew this was a bad start, and rather Mary-Sueish, but this was the only thing that would work for my intended plot. The difference is that she is not physically attractive, or powerful, and she doesn't use her past as an excuse, because she has her head on straight and knows that the abuse is not her fault in any way, but a result of drugs, alcholol, etc. Therefore, she doesn't have any emotional scars, although she is a somewhat reserved during the abuse thing, but she comes off it when it's over. I'm also worried about her being a wish-fufillment, but I'm watching that closely.
So, basically, does she seem like a Mary-Sue? Just wondering.

Hell, she doesn't seem Mary-Sue enough. *grin*

I would stop worrying completely about Mary-Sueism. I mean, she could still be WRITTEN as one, but you definitely seem to be watching out for that. The point is that although she does have an angsty past, she doesn't seem to actually angst ABOUT it, and make a big deal of it. I am rather worried that she hasn't been affected enough by her past (nobody can just shrug off years of neglect) and I'd be interested to know about the ways it HAS affected her, but as long as you keep an eye on yourself and don't find yourself loving her too much, you'll most likely be fine.

[Tundra]

So, Arden... what did you think a mary-sue was?

[Daisy]

[quote=Daisy]Hell, she doesn't seem Mary-Sue enough. *grin*

I would stop worrying completely about Mary-Sueism. I mean, she could still be WRITTEN as one, but you definitely seem to be watching out for that. The point is that although she does have an angsty past, she doesn't seem to actually angst ABOUT it, and make a big deal of it. I am rather worried that she hasn't been affected enough by her past (nobody can just shrug off years of neglect) and I'd be interested to know about the ways it HAS affected her, but as long as you keep an eye on yourself and don't find yourself loving her too much, you'll most likely be fine.

Yeah, I thought about that too. What minor effects could I have her experience? I don't really know.
More background, in case you need it.
She has a mother and stepfather who are usually stoned and/or drunk. But she is self-sufficient, and lives in her basement without contacting her parents much at all. But she has a great aunt who loves and supports her through letters, so the girl is content with that. She does miss her mother though, because pre-stepfather, she was a good, fun mom. And the neglect only occurs for a few years, but the girl survives on her own, through a part-time job with good pay (outside of school, she's not a dropout), and her great aunt's money that she left to the girl in her will. So, it's really the loss of her mother and aunt that mess her up, not the neglect, because she is very independent and resilient (and sorta headstrong) anyway.
Thanks.

[Einna]

Hmm...fine. Vindie's is just the elaborate form of an answer :P

I'll second her vote though, Daisy. A tragic past doesn't immediately make a character a Mary Sue. I actually did the Mary Sue litmus test on all my MC's in my series, and the second lowest scorer (out of 7) was Faer, who has, in her past, been abandonned, never had an actual home, been raped, been kidnapped, been attacked more times than you know, etc. Now if she was to angst about it the entire novel, she'd probably be a Mary Sue. But she doesn't. It was, to quote her, "just something that happened". The only thing that carries forwards from her past to her presant is a mean right hook and commitment issues due to lack of family.

Though strangely enough, Syl came out top of the list. I spent about five minutes just staring at the screen going "Syl's a whining bitch, how in the HELL did Syl become a MARY SODDING SUE?!?"

It was humerous.

[vindemiatrix]

Yeah, I thought about that too. What minor effects could I have her experience? I don't really know.
More background, in case you need it.
She has a mother and stepfather who are usually stoned and/or drunk. But she is self-sufficient, and lives in her basement without contacting her parents much at all. But she has a great aunt who loves and supports her through letters, so the girl is content with that. She does miss her mother though, because pre-stepfather, she was a good, fun mom. And the neglect only occurs for a few years, but the girl survives on her own, through a part-time job with good pay (outside of school, she's not a dropout), and her great aunt's money that she left to the girl in her will. So, it's really the loss of her mother and aunt that mess her up, not the neglect, because she is very independent and resilient (and sorta headstrong) anyway.
Thanks.

That sounds great so far, as long as you make sure that her self-sufficiency is believable (also, she'd be awfully run down having a job and school, would she not? O_O). I can see her having problems with people who aren't as independent as her, and I think that she would now always have difficulty relying on someone else to do something for her -- she seems like the sort of person who would only ever trust herself to do something and this could lead to problems in her relationships with other people. I'll think of a couple more if you like, but that's the first thing that came to mind -- trust issues. Not massive ones, but noticeable ones.

And Einna -- I don't trust those litmus tests. *grin* Especially not that one that you linked. I just ran my own Mary-Sue through them and he came up clean. There's better ones around for original fiction.

[Einna]

Wouldn't happen to have any links would you, Vinde?

[vindemiatrix]

Why yes, yes I do. One, anyway. http://www.ponylandpress.com/ms-test.html -- it has clicky boxes! And it adds up your score for you, which is a bonus if, like me, you can't count.

[Einna]

Awesome! That one's funky.
I don't know if you've seen http://www.katfeete.net/writing/marysue.html but I've just been going through all the litmus and Mary Sue tests (I've done about 12 so far) and all but this one seem based on the same one. This one's really good and origional, and again has clicky boxes. AND it actually gives you a personalized paragraph or three at the end rather than just a score.

[vindemiatrix]

That's EXCELLENT, although the reason I like it so much may be down to the fact that it uses your Mary-Sue's name in its statements, which ended up being pretty damned funny. It seems a bit lenient to me, but the results are nicely personalised.

[Arden]

lol sorry it took me so long to reply ive been really busy :D but... uh i thought a mary-sue was a character that was unoriginal and had been done a bunches and bunches of times before... Then i thought mabye its one of those goody-two shoes girls who gets all the guys they want even when it isnt sensible... there! I said it! :oops:

[vindemiatrix]

Arden, a Mary-Sue is BOTH of those as well. Just, also so much MORE. You were actually really close, though! Mary-Sues often have both of those qualities.

[Elski]

I like the one Einna just suggested. Hehe, it pronounced my self-insertation a good charecter with lots of potential at the *same time* it told me that she, well, *was* me. I think it's because when I write a self-insertation, I try to make it a actual self-insertation, not just wish fufillment.